Let's discuss Guild PvP

[Essence]

Greetings, fellow gamers!


It's no shockers that a guild system expansion is coming as most of you have already noticed the whole guild rent shebang. Today, I'd like to open up a discussion thread about guild wars and guild PvP as I'm not seeing many inputs in regards to the guild system. As some of you may know, these activities are an integral part of an MMORPG (not so much for Metin2, unfortunately), providing a fun and competitive way for players to test their skills against each other. Keep in mind we already have our own plans in regards to the expansion, so focus on the "feeling" aspect only and not so much on the technical part. So, let's get the discussion going!

If you're a guild leader or someone who usually plays in a guild, I would highly encourage you to participate in this thread discussion. And even if you're not, you perhaps would like to join a guild but several factors discourage you to do so - don't worry, any sort of feedback is much appreciated. What's your current opinion on guild PvP? What would you like to see? What do you think makes a great guild war or guild PvP experience? Do you prefer large-scale battles, where guilds fight for dominance over territories? Or do you prefer smaller skirmishes, where individual skill and strategy play a larger role? Should guild PvP be more focused on teamwork and coordination, or should individual skill be emphasized more? Hopefully these few prompt questions will generate some interaction here.


Remember, the goal of this discussion is to exchange ideas and perspectives, and to learn from each other. So please keep your comments constructive and respectful of others' opinions.



Warm wishes,
Essence.

 

[pisoaia]

What I would like to see? Let's see...for starters all the bugs regarding many classes..hmm...maybe fiexd???

 

[Essence]

What I would like to see? Let's see...for starters all the bugs regarding many classes..hmm...maybe fiexd???

You don't have to worry about that, they'll get fixed before we release this expansion.

 

[Fam]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I would suggest you guys fix the unplayable mess PvP is right now before you start thinking and asking feedback about Guild PvP.
Already plenty of posts in here describing how and why PvP is unplayable and super frustrating to participate in.

Skills not registering, Players stuck in place, and mounted players being unkillable are just some of the issues that we have already mentioned but you seem to ignore or at least not acknowledge.

 

[Essence]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I would suggest you guys fix the unplayable mess PvP is right now before you start thinking and asking feedback about Guild PvP.
Already plenty of posts in here describing how and why PvP is unplayable and super frustrating to participate in.

Skills not registering, Players stuck in place, and mounted players being unkillable are just some of the issues that we have already mentioned but you seem to ignore or at least not acknowledge.

I was hoping it would be obvious we are taking a good look at the overall state of PvP if we made this thread.
Discussing one thing doesn't mutually cancel the other.


So please stay on topic, else I'll be forced to delete the unrelated replies.

 

[Ozzy]

Guild PVP was always about coordonation and team effort. It should indeed be smaller skirmishes, 6v6 for example where you can mostly use all type of chars / buffs.
Now the second thing to take into consideration is : Do you as a team want us to Farm as much as we can and the Guild War to be won by cashers and tryhards who farm? then everyone should use their own equipment and it will always be an Equipment Diff.
THE SECOND OPTION which focuses more on the Ability and Game knowledge of the players,is to have a small skirmish again( always), AND EVERYONE wears a Default equipment decided by the Game. for example 2k 15 15 15 15 . Therefore, the guildwar will be SKILL BASED, and not Equipment Based, and you will see who CAN AND KNOW PVP and who is just a casher/ tryhard who has EQ and can 1v5.

 

[zun]

A guild war is out of the question if a mental warrior with a strong body on M1 already gets 2k more hp. I think you should think about balancing again.

 

[Fam]

I was hoping it would be obvious we are taking a good look at the overall state of PvP if we made this thread.
Discussing one thing doesn't mutually cancel the other.


So please stay on topic, else I'll be forced to delete the unrelated replies.

I don't know why it could be obvious since not a single member of your team replied to those posts but anyway.

Regarding Guild PvP, for starters, the most annoying thing in my opinion was always when one of the two guilds didn't join and the outcome was a tie. Make it so the guild that quits the war or never joins in the first place takes an L.

Moving on, you could add a weekly/monthly reward for the Guild with the most wins, of course, you gotta be able to check if those wins are legitimate. We already see guilds on the server "fixing" wars with other guilds (mostly their academy guild or whatever). If you can get over the issue of the "fixed" wars, I think having weekly/monthly rewards for the guild with the most wins would be a good incentive for players to get into PvP and for guilds to participate in more pvp action.

 

[ckinimod]

Feedback on PvP:
For Weapon Sura:
To give atleast 10% of the dispel advantage back: change the effect, so that they have to reactivate the skill manually - instead of them getting it back instantly.
Its fine if the dispel effect lasts "only" a few seconds in the early stages, as long as you need to reactivate the skills manually.
It does not make sense to steal 1 skill from a class - from a balancing point.

You can also increase the time of the dispel effect - but make it only working on targets with a X level difference (just like poison)
This way some lv. 20 players cant annoy people, and the skill itself is still working the way it was intended .

As for Mental Warrior:
The amount of extra HP they get needs to be re balanced.
It does make sense for them to get 2-3k HP on a P - skill.
But they already get alot of extra HP on M1 - doesnt really feel balanced.

As for BodyWarrior:
They get alot of attack speed, with no downside at all. To compensate, it would make sense to lower the amount of % attack-speed they get overall,
and have the biggest % boost on the P-skill

 

[Deleted member 808]

I know people will not agree with me - but here's my 2 cents on the guild PvP topic.

Personally, what I dislike the most is the fact that "guild PvP" doesn't actually imply all or the great majority of the guild members most of the time. Only those that have the required equipment are worthy to join - in some cases, casuals even pitch in equipment pieces to prepare someone else's character for the war.
Is this OK?

Yes it is. 100% - but not when your guild has over 10-15 people and everyone would like a shot, even for fun.
Because of this, I think the main way of doing guild PvP should be decided by highly experienced players, like some of the above that have shared their thoughts.

On the other hand, PvP representation, especially in a game like Metin2, is limited. With the traditional way of doing PvP, you'll soon have up and running only three classes of people - 24/7 farmers, 5 people that share 1 account to make it top PvP, or those that swipe the credit card whenever needed.

This is a healthy aspect for the server, due to various reasons.

But wouldn't PvP be funnier, have more representation, and also give people opportunity to learn how to compete in traditional PvP if it was a little bit more... casual?

Here is where I cling onto something from the initial post: Do you prefer large-scale battles, where guilds fight for dominance over territories?

It made me think about a bigger map where two or even more guilds could join with all their players, and work together to complete tasks - even if this means holding a point against enemy players or attacking one to conquer for points/resources. In such a scenario, I think mindless zug-zuging between players would not be beneficial and even more annoying than a regular guild war.

Such a map could even have different tiers - Beginner Tier where people are given predefined equipment with set in stone stats so that they can develop Skill and Strategy, and an Experienced Tier where players must bring their own equipment.

This is a foundation of what I have in mind. I won't expand as I know most people will not agree with me, or with such modern ways of doing PvP. But I think it could be interesting, even in a game like Metin2.

As an extra, the bigger special map for those large-scale battles could be the reward of the war - after the battle, it gets crowded with metins and ore veins and the winning guild has one hour, undisturbed, to farm in it.

Thank you for those who read until now - even if the ideas here are not helpful, I hope they might spark some new ones to be put to better use by more experienced players.

 

[Toxic]

Hello,

As someone that played metin for many many years and participated on several servers both in casual guild wars and in tournaments, I can see advantages in both styles of events:

• The brawl style of guild war - where everyone in the guild can participate, at best we make sure we have an equal number of members from each side and the goal is to hit a number of kills faster. This style of war is fun because it focuses on the coordination of the guild members, to disregard the idea of chasing one weaker member for kills and just focusing on the OPvP.
• The 5v5 or 6v6 scenario - the classic WoM Guild Tournament - this one is also very enjoyable, people need to pick their X number of great players to represent the guild in a smaller scale fight - here strategy and communication are key. The only disadvantage I see for this one is that it is relatively hard to find that number of players in your guild, that have: great items, great communication skills, that are willing to listen and follow someone's lead and, most importantly, that actually know how to play their class.
• The 2v2 or 3v4 scenario - it's an even smaller scale version of the Guild Tournament - this one is great for smaller guilds that do not have enough good players.

I think if the staff is willing to put in the work with us, we could have all 3 of these versions of events, rotating once every X weeks/months, the time period to be determined by staff. This would cover all the possible scenarios and would give more guilds a chance to participate. I think if we are given only one option, only a few old, well-known guilds, with people that played together for years will be able to participate and actually have a chance to win.

As a new guild leader, I'd love to see more diversity so newer guilds with newly formed bonds could participate, not just the guys that have been playing together for years. I think this way we could keep things fresh and we won't end up in the same 2-3 guilds fighting each other every Tournament.

I'd also like to thank Essence for asking for our feedback and showing interest in this side of the gameplay. 💕

Toodles

 

[Solaristica]

My first issue with guild wars is that they are so equipment dependent. I like Ozzy's post about having the characters that enter into the guild war are all set to equal skills, stats, levels, and equipment so the battles are more fair. Having that as an option to choose from would be awesome; either gear-dependent or preset gear. Would be even cooler if the preset gear made could have the guild's logo on it, but that's getting pretty deep into the weeds, lol.

I honestly would love there to be territory the guilds can war over and the guilds can gain more guild land in the process. I would love to see Map2 have guild land spots that can be purchased since it is a map that people always use. Having guild land I think needs to offer more benefits, like maybe we can put down vendors that sell special potions at a discount or a selection of upgrade materials that rotate each day. Maybe the Blacksmith available for guild lands can be "leveled" to increase their overall success rate. A area for a guild bank where members can store supplies for the guild would be awesome too.

As far as "feelings" goes, I want to feel like my guild is my team. That we have the means to support each others success. That being in a guild is more beneficial than not having a guild. Being in a guild should offer better access to materials, gold, EXP, drop, and help.

A random thing I would love to see is that notes panel brought back so the guild leader/permissioned members can post updates, or event dates for the guild members to see. I would love there to be a place to put a Discord link so people can easily click it to gain access to the Discord server.

 

[Leka]

Personally i would like to see something different,if you would of course want that. Let's assume all core pvp issues have been fixed.
Firstly i do not wish to play on any mode with full stats and HP and 15-15-15-15, we are not a pvp server or aeldra, where those stats are achievable in the end game pvp gear. If i wanted to play that i would not be here.Now that that's been taken care of let's get to actually discuss stuff.
This is my personal opinion and how i like wars and battles. but i always liked large scale battles, they remind me of some memorable moments from movies, the chaos and the fun of clashing with many opponents will always encourage me to play, farm and grind for my gear. I can see hardcore pvp players disagreeing with this and i understand why. A 6v6 mode is more professional and structured for tournaments. Large scale fights are more chaotic and imo more fun. There is room to have both.
There is so much potential with what you can do with guild lands, separately to guild wars, having a guild land should mean something more than just a place where you do x smith upgrades. More customization, campfires, A guildwars npc that sells you stuff in exchange for guild war tokens or something. That npc can have cool stuff like boss scroll summons or anything that will encourage all guildmates to come together. A guild land should be a place where the guild should hang out. Warp to land button should always tp you to CH1. All of that will not happen if you don't monitor guild wars making sure they are legit. Waltz guild is rank 1 because they were spamming wars between them. That should not be allowed. There is no other guild in the ranking system who has done that.
Some people also mention territory wars and i like that idea too, but it's easily abused by a strong guild, so it should be limited to an extend.
These were a few ideas that i came up. Some may be good some may be bad. I'm hoping we hear your thoughts and ideas about this matter too @Essence Let us know what you think about our ideas as a community and what you have in mind, any ideas or what would you like to see? Curious to see your thoughts and your opinions

 

[AdamlMalysz]

Guild PVP was always about coordonation and team effort. It should indeed be smaller skirmishes, 6v6 for example where you can mostly use all type of chars / buffs.
Now the second thing to take into consideration is : Do you as a team want us to Farm as much as we can and the Guild War to be won by cashers and tryhards who farm? then everyone should use their own equipment and it will always be an Equipment Diff.
THE SECOND OPTION which focuses more on the Ability and Game knowledge of the players,is to have a small skirmish again( always), AND EVERYONE wears a Default equipment decided by the Game. for example 2k 15 15 15 15 . Therefore, the guildwar will be SKILL BASED, and not Equipment Based, and you will see who CAN AND KNOW PVP and who is just a casher/ tryhard who has EQ and can 1v5.

I like your idea however, If you want have fun with perfect items, why are you playing wom it's hard server and the main reason to play hard server is chance to have some unique items. I wouldn't mind if it was done by giving some points/cash which player can spend and decide if he wants for example 2k 3x10 item, 2k 2x15 or 3x15 item and that would really require some game knowledge.

 

[Sero]

i just want to add that it would be horrible if people with set eq were put in pvp tournaments or guild tournaments it would take all the point of old school pvp so what's the point of building a pvp char when everyone gets the same eq? hope something like this is never considered!

 

[movies97123]

Hello, I can add something that I didn't see it mention in here.

There are multiple things to improve the guild PVP.

1. Sense of progression. This is usually being done by a ranking system, such as ranks (silver, gold platinum) or any other sorts.

2. Based on the progression, also the rewards to increase. Every fight should have rewards based on rank.


Imagine this system:


Ranks: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum

Each rank will have two reward chests, Bronze Loss, Bronze Win
For every fight each player that did participate in these fights, received one of these and the rewards will be accordingly to their guild rank

How often you can receive them, what will be the rewards, remain to decide. But if ALL players receive something, they will want to join as their time will have value, less or more.

 

[Garou]

- 1) Equal equipments and member limits in guild wars.
Guilds always refuse wars. For two reasons:
- They don't have enough members.
- They don't have a good equipment.

Considering how much time and money the Gameforge game design department spent on the PvP part of the game, it's pretty sad to see that nowadays it only represents the 2% of the total gameplay, being covered for 98% of it by the PvM.

I agree with @Ozzy on this one. There's already a lot of aspects of the game that rewards the tryharders, like the Dojang (1vs1) or the PvM part of the game.
If we want guilds to have wars, we need to give them a fair fight first.


- 2) Monthly guild tournaments.
Players exp alone. Players farm alone. Players go dungeons in solo.
What's the reason in joining a guild at all?

Creating a monthly guild tournament gives a reason to join a guild in the first place. Giving an equal equipment would also be a reason to bring other players from other servers, making WoM2 a public square for many players and a really strong form of sponsorization, once a month.
The rewards don't have to be in game items or DCs. A modified karma or a special costume is usually a more seeked reward as it gives social recognition and a sense of group, and it doesn't depreciate in-game items.


- 3) Bring dispel back to its values.
If dispel in the PvM environment is usually an annoying nuisance, in the guild war it becomes the most important tool to organize your teamcomp.
Dispel makes the guild war a chess game. It determines the peace of the war and the targets, it nerfes OP races like BM (that otherwise would be an unkillable one-shotter) and actually gives value to the weapon sura that deals no damage, can't tank as much as a mental or a BM and it's easy to put on fly.
Without dispel, guild wars are just skirmishes in which there's little space for strategy.
Without dispel, guild wars would be populated only by BM suras, corporal wars and healers.

 

[ckinimod]

- 1) Equal equipments and member limits in guild wars.
Guilds always refuse wars. For two reasons:
- They don't have enough members.
- They don't have a good equipment.

Considering how much time and money the Gameforge game design department spent on the PvP part of the game, it's pretty sad to see that nowadays it only represents the 2% of the total gameplay, being covered for 98% of it by the PvM.

I agree with @Ozzy on this one. There's already a lot of aspects of the game that rewards the tryharders, like the Dojang (1vs1) or the PvM part of the game.
If we want guilds to have wars, we need to give them a fair fight first.


- 2) Monthly guild tournaments.
Players exp alone. Players farm alone. Players go dungeons in solo.
What's the reason in joining a guild at all?

Creating a monthly guild tournament gives a reason to join a guild in the first place. Giving an equal equipment would also be a reason to bring other players from other servers, making WoM2 a public square for many players and a really strong form of sponsorization, once a month.
The rewards don't have to be in game items or DCs. A modified karma or a special costume is usually a more seeked reward as it gives social recognition and a sense of group, and it doesn't depreciate in-game items.


- 3) Bring dispel back to its values.
If dispel in the PvM environment is usually an annoying nuisance, in the guild war it becomes the most important tool to organize your teamcomp.
Dispel makes the guild war a chess game. It determines the peace of the war and the targets, it nerfes OP races like BM (that otherwise would be an unkillable one-shotter) and actually gives value to the weapon sura that deals no damage, can't tank as much as a mental or a BM and it's easy to put on fly.
Without dispel, guild wars are just skirmishes in which there's little space for strategy.
Without dispel, guild wars would be populated only by BM suras, corporal wars and healers.

Nr.3 is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT.
Without Dispel - you cannot kill strategic targets in open PvP.
You dont have to overtune Dispel, but it should work as intented. Right now its useless - except on P maybe.
I guess the LEVEL-Cap on which target you can use dispel seem to be the best and most balanced option.

 

[overgaard0002]

If you guys implement the "fair" guild war, what will we even be playing for? PvP does'nt exist in the open world. The point of most MMORPG and definetely Metin2, is to farm, so that you can PvP. The amount of PVE and PvP content in this game is minimal, so taking away the only way of showing how far you have come as a guild and as an individual player, pretty much leaves this game contentless.

 

[xB3asT]

Last one standing matches, guild vs guild teamdeatchmatch, the last one to survive win 1point, at certain nr of matches war is won, it can be 1vs1 or more guilds battle at same time, map can be modified to correspond this tipe of game.